Jeff Atwood

That survey is symptomatic of how badly the Notes developers are missing the point. Notes doesn't need a simple aesthetic or workflow redesign (of course it needs that too). Its missing basic functionality, and the functionality it has is poorly implemented. Searching mail is cumbersome and slow (bonus points if you've tried to, say, search by subject line on a mac notes client) - compare to thunderbird, outlook, Mail. The interface is a single-threaded monstrousity that locks up during any operation. Long operations usually can't be cancelled. Its completely intolerent of network problems, has absurdly long timeouts, and hangs routinely. The menu structure is byzantine and reflects a complete lack of user focus. There is no end to the list of problems.

Please hire some usability people and TRY USING SOME OTHER EMAIL CLIENTS. Yes, I know it does more than email. But if it can't do email with a level of functionality that was routine 5 years ago, don't bother with the rest.

In fact, let's look at the first question in Mary Beth's survey:

*1. How do you prefer to access your databases?

Workspace
Bookmarks Displayed as List
Bookmarks Displayed as Workspace

This survey is broken before we even get to the second question. Why is this question mandatory (*)? Why do you assume that I want to access my databases? What are you talking about?--I want to access my email messages.

The first question that you should ask is "What do you use Lotus Notes for?"

Here are some other questions that you should ask:

"Is there anything about Lotus Notes that you like/dislike?"

"What would you do to improve Lotus Notes?"

"Did you know that Lotus Notes does X?"

"How come you don't use feature X?"

This is one useless survey. If those "Hanover" screen shots imply what I suspect they imply, Lotus Notes 7 will be a rotting corpse wearing a nice looking suit.

Ben Rose completely misses the point - Notes is so much more than a e-mail program? Well, all those extra 'collaborative' features are just as impossible to use and undocumented to ordinary users. Microsoft doesn't need to 'catch up' with Outlook - Microsoft knows that it isn't Outlook's job to be anything more than what it is (hint1: Lotus Notes is a poor substitute for an Intranet portal and a relational database system; hint2: programs that do 'everything' 'their own way' are a very bad idea).

I can cite several examples of the sort of rubbish Notes puts people through that illustrate how badly broken it is:

1. There are 3 delete commands and you have to guess which one is going to work 'at the time' to delete an item. Pick the wrong one and you are told "you don't have permission to delete this object" (even though you do). You cannot delete something by merely selecting it and pressing the delete key. A Lotus Notes representative told me the triple menu is required because "internally, different techniques are required to delete different objects". Apparently there are no conditional statements in the programming language they are using - the user is expected to be the IF-THEN clause.

2. I have also been told by a representative that "if only people would attend the 3 day course they wouldn't complain". I have never needed to attend a course to use any program at all, and I have some really complex ones on my PC (3D graphics, recording studio software, VS.NET, etc). With Outlook, I "just use it" without prior thought or reading Help.

3. I've lost count of the number of times I've accessed something and been told "You do not have sufficient rights to view this object" (OK), followed by "Would you like to create a security certificate?" (er.. um.. OK...). After this I'm allowed to view the object. Now does this mean that the security system does not work? Or does it mean the administrator has authorised me to automatically create certificates to access some objects - and if the latter, why ask me? Why not just do it? (BTW: I think I have paraphrased the questions to make them less confusing - I did not know what was being asked by the second question and I have been a Windows developer for 10 years).

4. Notes has it's own Control Panel and time zones. You have to disable Daylight Saving on the host computer to use it or your meeting schedules are stored as double entries. Also, a meeting schedule is not much help when it frequently sends out reminders 1 hour off the mark.

And I just 'love' the Reply button that randomly (on the odd occasion) does a 'Reply to All' by mistake...

etc, etc, etc...

lucky you JonR - I don't even have admin rights to be able to get around using Lotsa Scrotes
God I must have done something wrong in a previous life...

I have to disagree with Stuart. This is more than a GUI preference. We have been tolerating NOTES for 6 years now in my company, and just got 7: not our lucky number. We are at the point of sending an email, then calling all recipients to make sure they received it. You cannot be guaranteed that email will make it through. Kind of disappointing for an email program, huh?

> You cannot be guaranteed that email will make it through. Kind of disappointing for an email program, huh?

What a load of !*!)&*. Sure, the Notes GUI might need an overhaul but email reliability on the backend for Notes is rock solid. It's also very easy to check where the messages are, track messages via the LOG.NSF. Exchange as you know is a "mystery box" for problem management.

>A big part of the reason Microsoft is so successful is that a user can easily figure out the functionality of its software

You've never worked with Microsoft ADS, Unattended Installs, SMS...then.

Pete

P.S. I've been sending suggestions to the Notes team for R8. Hopefully everyone would do the same.

Cool, hopefully Notes 8 will meet you're requirements. I guess the battle will be that unless it looks, feels exactly like Outlook, people still won't like it. We'll wait and see...

Pete

> Users hear about databases and rock-solid back ends, and care not...

Too damn right. I'm a user. I know nothing about databases etc etc.

I hate Notes with a vengance. I've been forced to use it at work for over four years. It is so unbelievably uncomfortable to use it is like wearing socks covered with itching powder.

I don't have the time or inclination to list everything that I hate about it. I'll mention just one. It's by no means the only thing, or the most annoying thing. But it typifies how USELESS it is.

When someone emails me, and requests a receipt, Notes automatically sends that receipt.

In Outlook Express the default is to ask me if I want to send it or not. I can easily change that action in the Tools Menu to "Always send it" or "Never send it".

But I have never been able to find any such option in Notes. The only option (it appears) is to "Always send it".

The receipt doesn't show anywhere as having been sent. I only know it's been sent as I get an email back from our (whatver it's called) telling me that I didn't authorise the email to be sent outside our organisation (we have to put a code in the title of our emails if we want it to go outside).

A minor irritation, I'm sure you'll agree. But it's the SUM of all these irritations that p*ss me off.

It's so rubbish it can't be helped. The comments about that survey sums it all up. It bears repeating, I think:

1. How do you prefer to access your databases?

- Workspace
- Bookmarks Displayed as List
- Bookmarks Displayed as Workspace

What, in a month of Sundays, does that mean??!

"Workspace" - what's that??
Bookmarks are my list of favorite (sic) websites in Firefox. I can understand a "list of bookmarks" (but not in context to my email program) but what on earth are "Bookmarks displayed as Workspace"?

And what on earth has an email program got to do with databases?

My comments show that I am ignorant of how computers and email programs (etc) work. Do the people at Lotus Notes drive a car? Do they know the finer details of how their car works? I bet they don't. That's my point. They don't need to. They just turn the ignition and off they go. They don't need to know about (erm... I know nothing about cars either...) petrol and that :-)

I hope they don't improve it. That way my employer will hopefully listen to us and get rid of it.

Grrr...

Rant over. Feel better now :-)

i agree. moved to lotus last week from outlook a disaster. are they seeling themselves v cheap for so many companies to be with them ???

If you copy/pasted in your opening thread with "Outlook" instead of "Notes," then you'd have it right. NOTES ROCKS! It's more than an e-mail program. It way more secure and has way more functionality too. I'll admit that that it may be hard to learn at first, but once you do, you'll NEVER want a hack program like Outlook again. I just started at a new company that uses Outlook, and I'm actually looking at changing jobs... for a number reasons... mostly b/c it's a "good ole boy" mentality there, but one of the minor reasons, is that they use Outlook. So if you like that sort of thinking, then please continue to use Outlook. I worked in IT for the past 9 years, so maybe I feel that Outlook is an email program for users who like training wheels, but I can't wait to look at those glorious tabs again. Another thing, at least in Notes, you get to see your email. Outlook has gone down at least once a week at this place!!!

My company moved to Notes 5 years ago. Since then I have had nothing but trouble. My only reprieve was when Microsoft released the Notes Connector for Outlook.
In the past I have hated Microsoft, but after this I owe Bill big time. Microsoft has put a useable interface on the piece of crap that Notes is.
My only advice to IBM is: Thunderbird has a nice interface. Write an adapter for it to connect to the Notes server, then cancel any further development of the Notes GUI, and ship Thunderbird instead.

1) My start-up was acquired by a huge company.
2) I was forced to use Lotus Notes.
3) Productivity loss ensued.
4) Frustration abounded.
5) Can hardly find a person in the company that doesn't associate the word "Sucks" with Lotus Notes.
6) Have come to realize that "Sucks" is part of IBM's brand essence.
7) Would give my left arm to change to my email client of choice (Entourage for Macintosh) -- kudos to IBM, at least it works on the Mac. 8) Have heavily adopted email on my Palm Treo because then I don't have to use Lotus Notes.
9) Thanks, IBM (and Good Technologies), for helping me adopt mobile computing!
10) All I can say about Lotus Notes is "Welcome to the 90's.

I work for either companies mail system as and can say this.. people will complain about everything Notes or Outlook. I wish I had a dollar for everytime someone found out I worked for Microsoft and demanded to speak to Bill Gates because their pissed off because their email system or network was hit with a Macro virus. Wake up peope Bill Gates doesn't care.. in fact I DON'T CARE !! Stop calling me to complain.. Like Lotus (IBM) Microsoft has it's issues ahh hello security ?? remember XP service Pact 2 See everyone forgets that ALL software has it's ups and downs. It's like buying a new car. Don't cry to me when you lost your cush job because the competition is better. Last time I looked we live in the USA Without competition you would have change. If IBM tosses Notes like it did with OS2 Warp... then you would be stuck with 1 vendor.. hmmm isn't that why you geeks hate paying for a Windows server and use the free shareware LINUX servers ?? Just SHUT UP & SIT DOWN !! You bithch to much..

I've been working at my new job for about 6 weeks now as a Helpdesk Manager. We use Notes (obviously, since I'm posting here), and this is my first experience with it.

At first, I hated it. I like some of the ideas... tabs are great (I'm a firefox user), and the colaberation could be useful. I don't think our company has things configured all that well, so a lot of my complaints could possibly be attributed to that, but some stuff lutter.I don't like so far:

- Performance. This is the number one issue. Notes is friggin' slow (or at least it is here). I mean, I am CONSTANTLY waiting for Notes to catch up to me.

- Interface. It's ugly. I know that doesn't matter much as much as functionality, but I hate looking at it.

- Bloat. I know they call it 'collaboration', but at this point why don't they just turn Notes into an OS? I see in the "Hannover" project they're working on integrating spreadsheet, presentation, and word processing interfaces. Where does it stop? I'd be that at least half of the Notes users our there rely on it for nothing more than a PIM application...

I'm no Microsoft zealot, so I don't want to hear the BS about 'things not looking like Microsoft applications'. I run an XP box at home, as well as a Slackware box running fluxbox and a FreeBSD-based server with new GUI installed. I've used Gnome, KDE, OSX... all (mostly) clean, logical interfaces. In fact, I'd almost rather throw one of my users in front of an Ubuntu box than a machine running Notes. I like what they're trying to do with the Hannover project, but hopefully the overhaul will encompass more than just the looks...

Anyway, I'd love to rant more and maybe I will after another month or two of using Notes, but I think the main point a lot of you Notes fans need to remember is that it shouldn't be necessary to have your users take a 3-day class if they simply need basic PIM functionality. It doesn't *have* to look like Outlook, but it should be clean and responsive. It's not that I disagree... I deal with users every day that shouldn't even be allowed within 500 ft of a computer... but the fact is that more technically-advanced users make up the *minority* of computer users, as much as we don't like it.

I am now the CIO of a company that is one of the largest Notes shops in the world. For example, at last count we have over 40,000 notes datbases. Prior to that I was CIO of a large Exchange/Outlook shop. So I know both products very well.

After using and managing both both Notes and Outlook enviroments, I can say without reservation, Notes is horrible. Mary Beth Raven if you are around send an email to me and let's talk.

I love Microsoft Exchange/Outlook. It's probably the best two programs since humanity began. It's the most secure, scalable system around, and 100% reliable. You could run an airport navigation system on it. Everyone I speak too loves it too. We'll pay anything to buy this wonderful program.

...then I woke up.

Pete

Is there a way to copy the contents of entire Mail Folders?
Please, any help will be greatly appreciated.



Stan,
You need to Archive. Archiving creates a database that can be stored on your or network drive and can be copied anywhere you like. Your admin should be able to help you out. If not, just go to Actions, Archive, Archive Settings to start. Check Notes help for details on archiving.

I have been working in a company as outsourced IT staff for 6 months now, they use a mixture of notes R5 and R6. I have not come across one problem with notes that hasn't been due to an external issue, or a user configuration issue. Most problems are caused by databases being corrupted by bad filesystem structures. For instance, and web problems, perweb.nsf. Any other problems, check the location document against the correct settings for the user. It's usually been changed. That's it. So I have to agree with everyone who has said get notes set up properly. The notes here was set up by IBM and it works _really_ well. Get it set up properly if you're having problems. As for the quota issues, just archive your mail. You can create a local archive of a mail database quite easily (head into your workspace and right click on the database, it's in the menu, depends a little on version).
Everyone who has been having big problems with notes should try getting someone who knows notes to have a look at the problems. Notes rocks.

Been through Notes 6 and 7 and let me start by saying it SUCKS. Having said that I do enjoy a challenge and have found solutions to most of my problems... one main exception being receipts and the only option of "always send", talk about a field day for spam... (I think this can be turned off at the server end).. and I've even found bits I like more than Outlook.

Stan/Scott,

Our administrators don't trust us to archive (probably rightly so), but it's simple enough to create your own separate database(help they have me using their scary lingo now)stored only on your PC and quickly accessable from the dreaded notes interface. FILE-DATABASE-NEW

It's then surprisingly easy to select and copy or move your email from the working database to your storage database.

We operate in a remote location on a slow satellite connection with the domino server at the other end, so most of the speed issues noted above are probably magnified here. Most however are fixable too, and like someone said they are normally related to configuration, but thats the issue isn't it, the thing is so damm complicated that something is always going wrong in seemingly random ways.

So close and yet so far.

Dear Dean (August 31),

Gee, you seem to be a really bright little guy, so take a look through the posts here and see whether you agree with this assessment:

1. The vast majority of them agree with the theme of the article, i.e. that their Notes user experience sucks. They go on to give objective examples.

2. The Notes-loving posts are a tiny minority. That in itself doesn't make them wrong, of course. But it strikes me that they all seem to use one or more of the following styles of argument:

"The Notes user experience doesn't suck for you because it doesn't suck for me." [relativist] Example: "You NotesBashers are all nuts. Notes rocks. I have absolutely no problems with it."

And/or:

"The Notes user experience doesn't suck for you because the stuff the user DOESN'T see doesn't suck." [irrelevant conclusion] Example: "What a load of !*!)&*. Sure, the Notes GUI might need an overhaul but email reliability on the backend for Notes is rock solid. It's also very easy to check where the messages are, track messages via the LOG.NSF."

And/or:

"The Notes user experience doesn't suck because you Notes haters all suck/are stupid whiney bitches. Buck up and learn how to use Notes the right way." [ad hominem] Example: "You whiners are like spoiled little kids and honestly if you can't get NOTES to send email, it's something you are doing wrong."

And/or:

"The Notes user experience doesn't suck for you because you love Microsoft." [circumstantial ad hominem] Examples: "I guess the battle will be that unless it looks, feels exactly like Outlook, people still won't like it." "The fact that some Microsoft junkies don’t get Notes is hardly surprising..."

I suggest that the vast majority of Notes users want email and calendaring functionality, period. Ideally, they want it to be intuitively easy to use, without training, and without having to work hard for it, because the job isn't all about Notes or Outlook, it's about getting work done. Every vendor's email and calendar functionality should be so easy to use that this article and list of comments WOULD NEVER EXIST.

So should we Notes whiners invest in training, hire more or better admins and configurators to set it up right, and abandon an intuitive interface that we like better just because Microsoft makes it? Nope. Surprise, Dean: most companies are in business to make money and therefore don't want to invest in additional training, IT staff, etc. to make a commoditized productivity app usable by the workforce, especially when competing apps that won't require that investment are available.

Notes may have limitless potential and added functionality for those who want to use it and take the time to learn it. Most of us don't want either, thank you very much. My car may not be a battleship, but it handles the task I need it to handle and leaves both me and the road in much better shape than the battleship would.

"Now please, have somebody show you what you are doing wrong (yes even you Mr. computer science degree Jerry ha ha what a joke) and maybe your NOTES problems will go away."

Oops, personal attack! Guess I have to take back that "bright little guy" comment at the beginning of this post. Tell you what, baby: I'll show you my degrees if you show me yours. Here's a hint: My MBA has more influence on why I think Lotus Notes sucks than does my BSCS...

-- Jerry Anderson

First of all, thank you to the person that made the revised splash screen. That was really funny.

The last poster "Random" pretty much sums up what the problem is with Notes. Most of the people using it simply use it for email and nothing else. Outlook, Thunderbird, hell - even Eudora (is that still around any more?) have a much better UI for handling email than Notes does because that is pretty much all they do. Email accounts for a miniscule portion of what Notes does so of course the user experience is going to be inferior in that context. I guess a parallel argument is that as easy to use and much loved as MS Word is, put it and Notepad in front of a total newbie and see which one they think is better. They are mostly going to like the one with less buttons and blinking lights.

Notes is really a perfect exmaple of how a application should not be. Its a software application for pre historic times. Just to site one of the many annoyances. If the invitee of a meeting request you have already accepted changes some text in the request and send the request again and then by mistake if you press the button request more information then you are doomed to send that request. There is no way you can cancel the request. I had to kill the process because the meeting request was sent by the CEO and I did not want to irritate him by sending a request for mot info! After killing the process I could not start Notes agin. Got a message to restrt the machine! Great
Deep

I like notes too. You have to get used to it, but when you do, you'll find it's a good soft. Believe me. :-)

A lot of comments placed here are really stupid...

An other example :

someone say :
"Notes is really a perfect exmaple of how a application should not be. Its a software application for pre historic times."

if you thinks that purhaps you have make your Lotus Notes development by a no notes developper... Lotus notes is very simple to use and to develop so a lot of people make very bad development without lotus notes philosophy...

But as i have say you can developpe any application with maximum 5 or 15 days, only with @formulas and Lotuscript, but if you prefere to install sharepoint, visual studio, .net and more to developpe a simple application and write lot of programmins code that your problem but i don't think that's was the futur...

I hate notes so freaking much. If I could count how many times I gave up waiting for it to respond and moved on to another task, then when it responded it was so late that I had forgotten what I needed.... Man, talk about loss of productivity. The best thing I have done was add an agent to forward all my mail to another account (gmail for example) and read my mail there.. only use notes if I have to respond to anything.

One more thing - the best thing Lotus Notes fans do is claim the next release will be better. I have heard that comment for every version of Lotus Notes - at Lotus it was Lotus Notes 5 is going to really revamp things.. then Lotus Notes 6 was super cutting edge tech and now the grand Lotus Notes 7 that I was told was really going to change things. Now its Lotus Notes 8 (copying from Microsoft which is a switch since they usually do the copying but they must have something right).

Anyone who has been around Lotus Notes for a while knows this is true. That said its a great strategy - it keeps a dead product alive. Its like telling your landlord they will get the rent next week, then the next, then the next.

There are plenty of websites dedicated to how much Outlook sucks too. Thanks to the internet, you can prove any point of view you have, regardless of how misinformed it is.

Lotus Notes replaced = bad developers losing jobs = Lotus Notes fans.

No-one should judge either Lotus Notes or Outlook until they have had the pleasure of using Pegasus Mail. This fast, logical, intuitive, aesthetic, and efficient program should be a model for all others. Having all the folders open in separate panes in the classic view is such a joy. Copying the folders for transport or backup is so simple. I cry each day at work when faced with Notes and my 50 or so messages, most with big attachments, and a restrictive quota from IT. To be honest I send many home so I can work on them in Pegasus instead of Notes. And did I mention Pegasus is free?

The engineers could never manage to get out of their programming mindsets and build the thing to do what users want, and as a result technology has passed them by.

On the one hand I did have some respect for the package of features you get with it. But it was always a pain in the ass, the email client in particular.

These days, Notes is simply not necessary. Use a proper email client, and create an intranet using standard web tools connected with Office or Open Office.

Unfortunately, I can't make the Microsoft Notes Connector work with Notes 7 (our servers were recently upgraded to 7.x, and my Notes client too).

Until now, I was happy I could avoid this ridiculous Notes POS by slapping Outlook on top of it. But now that we're "upgraded" it's back to the Notes client.

I'm depressed because of it.

Anyone knows how to make the Microsoft Notes Connector work with Notes 7?

Eeek where to start...
If you want to use Outlook as the front end to lotus notes use the IBM Connector for Outlook, not microsoft's, its fair more reliable than the Microsoft hack.

If you only use Notes for email then don't use the Notes Client (which is a rich client to enable you to use Applications developed for Notes), you can use a Web browser, or pretty much any other Email client, outlook, thunderbird, etc... you just need to configure you Domino Server correctly.

The problems listed here can all be resolved by a decent IT team....